The Pretenders are the black cat of rock music. They go where they want, without seeking approval, yet are more enduringly loved than many trend-chasing acts that have come and gone during the four decades that they’ve been in business.
Bad luck has crossed their path once or twice over the years, too, notably with the tragically early death of guitarist James Honeyman-Scott, whose influence is still felt in the band’s music today, many incarnations on from the original 1978 line-up to which he belonged.
To this day, the band’s musical DNA is pure mercury – you could read their music as punk for romantics or pop for rebels, or simply tough yet tender-hearted rock ’n’ roll that speaks with the force that honesty always commands.
And did we say that you can find some of the best guitar playing you’ll hear anywhere in their recent recordings, thanks to guitarist James Walbourne? We did now.
We join Chrissie and James, who today form the songwriting nucleus of the group – a musical partnership that has thrived for many years now – to find out what the gang, unchained, is up to next…
What’s your working relationship like recently?
James has a great melodic sense. So I can send him a lyric and he can send something back that I hadn’t thought of at all that’s very melodic
Chrissie Hynde
Chrissie Hynde: “It has changed a lot. I can knock out lyrics when I wake up – but I started only with the guitar and coming up with a riff – some basic bullshit that would inform what the song was going to be about, just from what it sounded like.
“But James has a great melodic sense. So I can send him a lyric and he can send something back that I hadn’t thought of at all that’s very melodic. So that has made me even more lazy on the guitar than I was anyway (laughs).
“The thing is, I resisted trying to write anything with James, for the first I don’t know how many years we’ve been working together, because I knew he was great on stage and I knew he was a real hotshot guitar hero, so that’s mission accomplished already. I thought, ‘What if we do try to write together and it just doesn’t work?’ I thought it could kind of fuck things up a little bit. It really scared me for years.”
James Walbourne: “I had no confidence, back then, to write, either – especially collaboration. I very rarely do that. So when we first ventured to collaborate, I was just sitting at home one day and I think Chrissie maybe sent me a lyric or something. It was that song, You Can’t Hurt A Fool.
“I just did a little recording on my phone (of a possible chord sequence on guitar) and I thought, ‘Oh, fuck it,’ and sent it to Chrissie. That was the first one we started. It just blossomed from there really quickly, but it’s that thing of not being scared to send it and relinquish all hold over the song.”
Chrissie: “I think 99 per cent of anything I’ve sent him, he has sent back (with a suggested melody) and I’m like, ‘Amazing.’ There have been a couple weird moments, but…”
James: “Chrissie’s lyrics are fantastic. If something speaks to me straightaway, then the melody will come out straight – it’s almost pretty instant with some of them, which is kind of amazing to me. It would just stem from that, really. Then I just go through them and send them to Chrissie.”
Chrissie, what do you like – and what don’t you like – in a guitarist that you’re working with?
Chrissie: “Well, first of all they have to be much, much better than me. I just get the job done, so I see it very much as my position in a band is to shine a light on the guitar player because, to me, a band is about the guitar player, primarily. That’s what I loved right from the beginning. It’s the unit of it, but it still is about electric guitars.
“So it has to be someone that can carry the whole thing, that has a kind of unique sound because The Pretenders’ sound started with James Honeyman-Scott. The guitar players I’ve had subsequently have all been big Jimmy Scott fans, so they have really taken a lot from his sound. That has given it a continuity, which I haven’t gone for on purpose, but anyone who’s going to entertain the idea of playing with me is going to be a James Honeyman-Scott fan, so they already like that kind of sound.”
The Pretenders, from album to album, always sound completely distinctive – regardless of who’s on guitar. Why is that?
Chrissie: “It’s all because of Jimmy Scott.”
Do you feel he set the tone for the whole of The Pretenders’ career that followed, guitar wise?
Chrissie: “Yeah. Also, you know… I’m not going to be self-effacing, but I’m not a great musician, I know that. But what I am good at…”
James: “Yeah, but hold on a minute. See, I hear this and I can’t actually… because that’s quite a load of bollocks because you are a great musician and you say that too often. You do yourself down – because Chrissie’s guitar playing holds the band together and it’s fantastic. It’s the rhythm playing, it’s unique in a great way.”
Chrissie: “Well, because when I first started playing, I was too shy to go with the guys in the art room and play so I just had this foresight, like most people who end up writing songs, just to be on my own and write something I could sing to because I wasn’t good enough to play along with the radio. So I could only really sing if I was playing. For years, I needed that.”
James: “Chrissie’s playing really shapes the sounds of a record, especially the early ones. It was Chrissie and James Honeyman-Scott, that was the sound. It wasn’t just one, it was two. It was definitely a shared thing..”
Chrissie: “Well, there was one time with Jimmy Scott where we did a show somewhere, I don’t know where it was and, for some reason, I kind of stopped playing and got more handheld (with the vocal mic). I had never done that before. I really enjoyed that show and I thought, ‘This is fucking great.’ I remember really being pleased and I never felt like that after shows. I always felt that I wasn’t really very good.
“I’m not going to put myself down – but maybe most people feel like that, so it’s not unique to me. Anyway, I did this handheld stuff and I came off and I thought, ‘That was amazing.’ I just felt more in the pocket and everything.
“So when we came off, I thought Jimmy was going to go, ‘Nice one,’ and he looks at me and he goes, ‘Don’t you ever fucking do that again.’ I don’t think I’d ever seen him really angry at me before. It was the only time I remember him really pissed off at me.”
James: “Well, that goes to show how important your parts are.”
Chrissie: “Yeah. I didn’t get it at all.”
James: “As a guitar player, if you’re in a four-piece band and the other guitar goes out, it’s horrible – it’s not fun. You play off each other.”
James, do you have any personal rules regarding what kind of guitar playing works in the context of The Pretenders?
James: “No.”
Do you do what just feels natural over the music?
James: “Yeah.”
Chrissie, do you ever veto any guitar parts that James comes up with?
Chrissie: “No, not the top parts. I think one thing that probably is my strong point is orchestrating (the whole song). So I can kind of sit back and listen and get a feel for what works and what doesn’t. Also, I’m good at breakdowns and laying out certain things, or if we need to extend a part because I hear it differently. I don’t count; I’ll hear it more in terms of when I feel it’s right… so, you know, I’m just good at putting it (all) together.”
James: “Absolutely. Also, I’ve played in lots of bands in the past, but Chrissie was the first person, really, that never told me what to play at all. Because I’ve been in bands where people tell you what to play – and it’s like, ‘Just do it your fucking self, then! What am I doing here?’ (laughs) Really, it was the first time ever.”
Chrissie: “Wow.”
James: “It was a breath of fresh air and, in that way, it was very unique. Chrissie was like, ‘Just go and do your thing.’”
Chrissie: “Yeah. I mean, I don’t know that much about football. James is really the football fan, but even in the early days, when I was a Joe Jordan fan, watching Manchester United, I got it. The job when you’re on that pitch is to set the other guy up to get the ball in the net.
“That’s my mentality on stage: ‘Don’t look at me.’ Okay, I know I’m singing and I’m like the main attraction for some of you, but what it really is about is for me to make him look good. That’s how I feel a band works. When you’re watching a band, you don’t want to just focus on one person.
“That’s why it doesn’t work in stadiums on big screens because you’ve got a camera looking right up your snout and you’re only seeing one person who’s, like, 50 yards away from the other person. You might as well stay at home and watch it on TV. So we always made sure that we’re the same distance apart on stage (as we would be) if we were playing in a club. It doesn’t matter how big the stage is.”
Chrissie, you’re best known for playing that Ice Blue Telecaster – how did you come by it?
Chrissie: “I got it in the early days, somewhere in New York City, Manny’s or one of those places – I can’t even remember who I was with, maybe Jimmy, I don’t know. The guy had two Teles and I wanted to get one. One was a blue one and one had the original finish.
“Because I come from a punk mentality – and I really do have it – I don’t like collectors’ items and all that. So the guy in the shop said, ‘Well, this one has the original finish, the white one, so it’s going to be worth more.’ I said, ‘Give me the blue one.’ So that’s where I first got my blue one.
“Over the years, in the early days, a guitar company would come and I’d go into a soundcheck and there’d be all these cases open with different guitars, a whole line of them, and they’d say, ‘Choose one. We’ll give you a guitar.’ I’d be like, ‘No, thanks. I have a guitar.’ ‘But you can have any of these,’ they’d tell me – but I’d always say, ‘No, I’m okay with my guitar.’ It was always like that.
“Later, when people said, ‘You can get a signature guitar,’ I did all these sketches and I’d be thinking, ‘I wonder if I want a black one, I wonder if I want this. Maybe I can have that.’ But in the end, I thought, ‘I don’t even fucking want a guitar. I like my guitar.’ So I said, ‘If you want to make me a signature guitar, just copy the one I’ve got. There you go. That’s it.’”
“So they pretty much copied it exactly, except I sort of defied the experts and let them put on some modern machineheads because any real guitar nerd would say, ‘No, you’ve got to have vintage machineheads,’ and I said, ‘Yeah, but if I’m in a hotel…’
“I can’t even string the guitar any more, to be honest. I have to get someone else to do it, I can’t remember how it’s done. In the early days, I changed the machineheads on my SG, but now I can’t even change a string. But that’s the only difference.
“Actually, my initials are on the back, that’s one difference. Then, on the strap, there’s a deputy sheriff’s badge, which Viggo Mortensen gave me because I was such a fan of Appaloosa, the film. I met him and I went on about it so much, probably. I’ve seen the film so many times. Then I went on tour and my friend took me to see Viggo reciting The Waste Land by TS Eliot.”
“Afterward, I collared him and said, ‘Can we talk about Appaloosa?’ Anyway, after that my friend said, ‘Oh, Viggo Mortensen wanted your address,’ and I said, ‘Amazing,’ and she goes, ‘Can I give it to him?’ I said, ‘Yeah, but I’m on tour,’ and she goes, ‘Well, I’ll have him send whatever it is to me.’ I said, ‘Yeah, fine.’ So I thought, ‘Wow, how cool.’
“Anyway, I finally see her after the tour and she goes, ‘Oh, this is from Viggo and it’s the sheriff’s badge from Appaloosa that he wore in the film.’ That went right on my guitar strap! So when they did the signature guitar, I said, ‘And you have to put a sheriff’s badge on there…’ I wanted to say thank you very much, Fender, for making that guitar because it is fantastic. Now, I take that one on the road, the signature model – you played one, didn’t you?”
James: “Yeah, it’s brilliant. The neck’s great.”
Chrissie: “I took about three different guitars that I liked, made sure the neck was right and then just had them do it like the blue one, the original one. Actually, I have one more story about my signature guitar that I’d like to tell…
“I was in Paris and I walked by a guitar shop. I was staying in Paris at the time. I didn’t have a guitar because I won’t carry anything. Anyway, I walked by this shop and at the back of the shop, I saw the Chrissie Hynde signature guitar. I thought, ‘Fucking hell, there’s my guitar. Great.’ So I walked in and I said, ‘Can I get that guitar, the one at the end there?’
“The guy said, ‘Yeah,’ put it in the case and gave it to me. I went to pay for it and I gave my credit card. He looked at the name on the credit card and then he looked up at me (laughs). He said, ‘Oh, can I have a selfie with you?’ and I said, ‘Yeah, if you carry the guitar across the street’ (laughs) and he did.”
James, what Pretenders songs do you enjoy playing the most, as a guitarist?
James: “That’s interesting. Well… oh, God.”
Chrissie: “Our new ones, probably, that you wrote.”
James: “The new ones that I wrote (laughs). Thank you for that! Yeah, I enjoy playing those, but there’s also the old ones. Because when I first joined the band, Chrissie said to me, ‘I don’t want you to play what’s on the record,’ which was music to my ears because, quite honestly, I find it difficult to be constrained by those sort of things, but, obviously, with those older songs, there are parts you have to play. You can’t play Back On The Chain Gang without playing the riff…”
Chrissie: “Which was Billy Bremner’s riff…”
James: “Things like that, and a lot of the famous parts of the song, you have to keep, but I certainly didn’t learn them verbatim. All the major hooks and everything, of course. But something like Mystery Achievement is a great one from the older songs because they’re just great parts and you can really get into them. Oh, what’s the other one? I’ve been playing it for about two years… Time The Avenger, that’s great.”
Chrissie: “Oh, that’s Jimmy Scott.”
James: “It’s great because they’re almost like Northern soul riffs on them, really, you know? Then a bit of punk guitar and very melodic.”
The little staccato riff that trips along on Don’t Get Me Wrong is perfect like that.
Chrissie: “That was Robbie McIntosh. I would like to say, a lot of these songs, I now feel it is wrong for me to claim credit because I would write a song on the guitar, take it to the band, and then they would (add their own contributions) – that’s how it always worked. They would embellish it with their own sounds. That’s why it wasn’t called the Chrissie Hynde group, it was called The Pretenders.
“But then, over the years as it evolved, I realised that the guitar riff is… it’s a tricky thing with songwriting because if someone comes up with just a title and that triggers off a song, they have a credit, but if you’ve already written the song and you take it to them and they embellish it, it’s like you took the finished song and they (simply added further details).”
“So, now, if I were to go back on it, I would think, well, Billy Bremner had such a significant part on Back On The Chain Gang and Robbie McIntosh… I mean, he played on Middle Of The Road and 2000 Miles and stuff. Adam Seymour had significant parts on anything he played on. I’m sorry, guys, you know?”
James: “But that’s guitar players, you know – that’s just how it works. We know that.”
Chrissie: “The germ of the thing belongs to the (original writer), but then the way people embellish it and produce it and put it together – that’s the difference between a band and a solo artist, probably, if I had to define it.”
Tell us about the new live album.
One night we played this mega-dome somewhere. And the next night would be the 7th St Entry in Minneapolis, which holds about 200 people
James Walbourne
Chrisse: “After lockdown, I insisted on playing clubs because I felt like I was at club level (as a performer) after not doing anything for so long. It was against the advice of the powers that be, true, but I knew that – just psychologically, for whatever reason – I had to do that.
“And I said, ‘Look, if you can’t find us any gigs, we’ll just do some pre-shows.’ And miraculously, some gigs appeared. I said to my manager, ‘You know, Ian, I don’t really care if I break even.’ He goes, ‘Yeah, but if you don’t break even, I can’t pay my staff.’ So I said, ‘Oh, of course.’ I don’t think in business terms.
“So we did a whole tour of clubs, and then when we played The Social here in London, our agent came down and my manager – they stood back and they went, ‘Okay, we get it now. We get it now.’ Because what you get in the club with the band, you don’t get it anywhere else. And if a band is playing only stadiums and arenas, if they want to do a club, it becomes a special show. But I thought, ‘No, we’re not doing that. This is us.’”
James: “One night we played this mega-dome somewhere. And the next night would be the 7th St Entry in Minneapolis, which holds about 200 people at a push. And so it was a very strange tour.”
Chrissie: “But what it did for us is it made us feel like a band again, so we kind of knew what we were doing. And it informed the way we were writing…”
James: “And we hated each other at the end of it (laughs). So we really did a good job.”
Chrissie: “A theatre is a great size. In the early days, I didn’t like them because people were sitting and I thought you had to stand up. And now I don’t give a shit – sit down, just watch the show, whatever. It gives the band the possibility to have a lot of light and shade or nuance within the set, which I think is really important, so we can do some sort of ballads.”
James: “But the main reason we did the clubs was because, leading up to Covid, we played a lot of gigs where we had to do the hits – we played with Fleetwood Mac, we did a lot of stuff. So by the time that Covid happened and the lockdown happened, it needed to change and that was the catalyst.”
Chrissie: “We talked about it a lot – of course, everyone wants to hear the songs. You know, if I went to see David Bowie, I’d have wanted him to do Changes. If he doesn’t, I’ll go home and, you know, cry. But then, on the other hand, I never wanted to play Brass In Pocket for the rest of my life – and I’m not going to.
You have to split the difference and give the audience what they want, but also you have to do what you want: that’s why they liked you in the first place
Chrissie Hynde
“You have to split the difference and give the audience what they want, but also you have to do what you want: that’s why they liked you in the first place because you did what you want. So you have to bring it back.
“That brings me up to why we did the live album. Because the live album is just what our monitor (mix) recorded. In our live show, there’s what you might call deep cuts, songs that we’ve done for the last two years – but the main audience won’t know it because they were never hits. It was never on the radio.
“If we put it out in some way, if we do go out again, we can do these songs and they’re more familiar because people want what they’re familiar with. A case in point is that song The Losing (from the 2002 album, Loose Screw).”
James: “Some of those songs like The Losing might have – with the greatest of respect – suffered from some of the production at the time…”
Chrissie: “Oh, big-time.”
James: “So we stripped it back to how a four-piece rock ’n’ roll band would do it. The song really came out to where you think, ‘Fuck me, that’s a great song.’ Which might have got lost in translation, before.”
Chrissie: “I mean, James’s playing on Thumbelina – which is an older Pretenders song – (is incredible). The live album is called Kick ’Em Where It Hurts, and the reason for that is because I’m so fierce about my guitar hero (James) that when I listen to other bands, I’m thinking, ‘You aren’t a fucking guitar hero, that’s a guitar hero!’ And so when I listen to some of the other guitar players out there, that’s what I thought: ‘You call yourself a band? This is a band.’”
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